How This Podcast Could Fail

Support for this show comes from Canva. What's your next big thing? Whatever it is, you can design it with Canva. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos all the way to websites. Whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com. Support for this show comes from SAS. It's time to have an honest talk about AI, not about whether it will replace us, but about how it's becoming easier and easier to outsource our thinking to systems that people just won't understand. Thankfully, SAS has been in data and AI for fifty years, and they believe in a pretty simple idea. AI should be explainable, well governed, and worthy of trust. Visit sas.com to see how AI should be built for high stakes decisions where the cost of getting it wrong is real and human accountability isn't optional. Learn more at sas.com. That's sas.com. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's odoo.com.

Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. A show from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Hi, everybody. This is the Curiosity Shop. I'm Brene Brown. Welcome. I'm Adam Grant. I'm excited that we're here again. That was the first episode was much more fun than I expected. Yeah. Me too. I was kinda nervous. Were you nervous at all? I wasn't nervous going in, but I started getting nervous when we started talking about our fight argument. What do you call it? A dust up? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I wasn't I wasn't sure how that was gonna go. And we had never it's weird that we just did it on a podcast as opposed to doing it, like, in person. But It felt like we had to talk about it because it's the origin story. It is the origin story. I I actually do you know I started podcasting because of that fight? What? I've never told you this. Okay. So 2016, I write that New York Times piece. I quote you. You write your strongly worded smackdown. I respond, you respond. I didn't know what to do at that point because I felt like it was unresolved. I was I was really upset that you clearly thought I was, you know, not a respectful person, not a careful scholar. And I also I I felt like there was a lot more to explore in the differences between our views that we hadn't gotten to. And I reached out to Ted, and I said, Hey, two of your speakers are having this very public debate. Have you ever thought about doing, instead of just people doing monologues, like a debate at TED? And they said, no. But this would make for a really interesting podcast. You're kidding. No. And so that that that was my first conversation ever about podcasting. And the thought was that Ted was gonna host it, and you and I somebody was gonna moderate, and that we were gonna have a conflict mediator try to reconcile our differences. Because I was so was so upset I had no idea of any of this. I I was I was so distraught at the thought that it would just be left hanging and that we wouldn't we wouldn't work it out. And then it was very clear that you did not want did not wanna engage from the signals you had sent. And I also I think it stung enough that I was like, you know what? I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna have a relationship with her. And that morphed into, I'm gonna create a podcast with with Ted.

If you watched his great podcast, you're welcome. That was all you, Bren. For the win. You. But but here we are. Yeah. Is that wild? Literally, ten years later, doing a podcast together. And it's been bumpy. Very bumpy. Building Sometimes literally. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because we didn't tell this we didn't get into this part. So we yeah. This is kinda like the part two. We do the you invite me to do the work with you. We do the work together, with the women's sports team. What happens from there? You I invite you on the podcast. Oh, I loved our conversation on the podcast, and it became one of my most downloaded podcasts of my whole series. And then you were the first episode of the new podcast I launched. We did so we did one where I got to interview you. And then we started doing the the rotating conversations with Simon and Simon Sinek. Yeah. And we did a bunch of those, and it was it was fun. And I I think we also started then overlapping more at events as opposed to, oh, you were there two days ago, and then I showed up. Or you were there last year, and then I did this year. We started seeing each other more. Yeah. Yeah. And then we ended up on a flight together.

Then oh. But before we got on the fight, the night before, we were on stage together for the first time. Oh, that did not go well. That did not go well. Well, I think it I think it went well for the audience. It went went great for us. Yeah. It it went well for the audience. I think we got into a conflict that I think was supposed to be fun, but didn't feel fun for me. And I I was completely oblivious to that. Yeah. I thought I thought we were just having a a fun debate. Yeah. And then I was like, god dang it. Here we go again. And the next morning, we had to get on a flight, and I was frustrated. And we had a really we were having kind of a tension filled conversation about it. This is my memory of it. And then we hit turbulence. And then I looked at you, and you said, are you okay? Like, very tersely almost. Are you alright? And I said, no. I'm scared. And you said and you weren't you were so kind. You weren't judgy at all. You went you said something like, oh, are you are you afraid of flying? And I said, no. I'm afraid of dying, which it feels like I think we're gonna do right now because this is engineering and from an engineering perspective, this should not be happening. And then you were just kind of like, no. From an engineering perspective, this makes total sense. And then you kinda talked me through it. And then I was like, okay. And then we had a good conversation about what what about that stage dynamic worked and what didn't work. And I think it's because we're different enough that I see you in a way where you're one of the most earnest people. But? No. No. That I've ever met. So I can find myself being less armored with you very quickly because so so when you say something that's funny and, like, sarcastic or zingy, which is, like, how I grew up, and what what I am very good at it. I'm actually really good at sarcasm and do it with a couple of my friends nonstop. But when you do it, I don't know I because you're so earnest, I think you're saying something really like, oh, shit. He's mad. Or, oh, man, he thinks I'm he's he doesn't think I'm smart or something like that, and you're being sarcastic just to for levity. Yeah. Exactly. To not to not be overly earnest. To not be because you don't you don't wanna be overly earnest. No. I don't. I wanna I I I you know, it comes across that I care about people and and honesty and integrity are important to me, but I also have a little edge. Right. And I don't wanna sound like a Pollyanna. Right. No. Right. And so, yeah, so it was it's just like getting that getting to know people today, especially I would not consider myself an easy person. I'm a I'm a pretty complex person.

Pretty complex? Almost Understatement. Almost as complex as you. And you're getting Much more. Yeah. I knew you were gonna say that because you see yourself as simplicity. What you see is what you get. You're like the wizzy wig guy. You're not. I don't know what that means, but go ahead. You know what? Like, what you see is what you get. Like, you're you're just you're not complex. I I I I think I'm straightforward. Am I not straightforward? No. Why not? Because there's a distance between some things about you that I think are genuine and some ways that you are always self improving. And, like, I don't think overly earnest is Pollyanna, but that's your read on it. I think it's unusual and awesome. Yeah. And so but, you know, like, the sarcasm thing, I'm really careful about. I'm a you know, the other thing is I'm a word person. Like, words like, you noticed this. Oh, yes. Like, words I thought I was one until I met you. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good. I'm like a word person, but, like, you know, the Greek origin of the word sarcasm, to tear flesh. Oh, that's biting. Yeah. And I also think it's like last episode, we talked about how your how I really complimented you on your ability to repair and apologize, and you talked about coming from a divorced family. I also come from that. And so but I also come from one that was very as the oh, yeah. The oldest daughter thing, which you you probably should stay aware of because you've got an oldest daughter, and I've got an oldest daughter. Right? But, like, that when teasing broke out in my family, our our sarcasm broke out, I was immediate like, oh god. Like, there's a scene from Mary Poppins when, like, the admiral's getting ready to blow the cannon, and the housekeepers run around and make sure everything nothing falls off shelves. So as soon as sarcasm and teasing started in my family, I got hypervigilant because this is gonna end in tears for somebody.

That that makes so much sense. And I come at it from a completely different place, which is I think about and there's a whole body of research on prosocial teasing. Yes. I would never I would never tease you if it weren't a sign of affection. So I so so so how do we reconcile this too? Because sports shit talk is my love language. Trash talk. I love trash talk. And this is in the same category as that for me. I love trash talk. Okay. Next time you say something that I'm like, woah. I'm I'm be like, are you shit talking me? And you'll be like, yeah. And I'm okay. I see you. Maybe. Or I could just do it less. No. No. Let's try it. We'll just try it. Okay. Because I do love I am such a trash talker. You are. Yeah. You are. And that makes it seem like I mean, I think this this kind of sarcasm is a it's it's at least a near cousin. It is definitely a first cousin. Trash talk. Yeah. And so it it seems like it would it would elicit the same reaction, but it doesn't. So because because I'm telling you, there's a There's a trigger there. No. There's a We'll see if we leave this in the podcast or not because I I think Adam's been diagnosing me over the last month. I haven't diagnosed anyone ever. I'm just telling you that you have round edges, and sarcasm has sharp points. And so there's a disc like, there's a disconnect for me because you're not a pointy per he's convinced that I have shape synesthesia because you might.

Because I see everything in shapes. And so, like, so for for pointy shape for pointy people, I'm expecting it, but from round people, I'm not. Okay. And so let me let me see if I can translate that into psychology language. I hear that I what I hear is I'm I'm a personality wise, I'm a highly agreeable person. And that is Hell no. Interpersonally, not intellectually. I care about social harmony Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But I will debate ideas Right. Endlessly. Okay. So say it again, but caveat the agreeability. Yeah. Maybe maybe I'll I'll I'll try to be more specific on this. So I think within agreeableness, I probably lead with a fair amount of warmth and trust. Yes. And then there's this sort of harder, like, the sarcasm is more disagreeable. It's more adversarial, and it and so it doesn't fit. No. No? I don't think. Okay. Play play it back a different way. Think round pointy then?

I think you mean what you say, and you say what you mean. Oh. You do not mince words. So if you look at me and go, nice cowboy shirt, Dolly Parton, then I'm like you know? Because, like so I I Oh. It's not I I can't match you and the word agreeability in any context. I score off the charts on agreeableness. Yeah. No. I can't. I think you are is it sincere or straightforward? Yeah. Yeah. That that's in the honesty, humility axis, interestingly. Yeah. Is it? Tell more people what that means. One of the models of personality that has kind of emerged along with the big five is Mexico, which reinterprets some of the standard extraversion, emotional stability, openness, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and then adds this honestyhumility trait, which is about being straightforward and sincere and having integrity. And I aspire to be all of those things. And so you're saying the sarcasm does not fit in with those things, and it feels like a conflict for you. Yes. Okay. So that's so interesting because the way that I look at that is different, which is I'm all those things, and therefore, everyone will know not to take my sarcasm at face value.

Oh, I think that's a that's a that's a wily assumption, Adam Grant. I've been making up as long as I can remember without realizing it until now. So thank you for pointing that out. That's a wily assumption. So I think there's a new Texas measurement tool called the bullshitter analysis. This is not true. There's not, but there should be, which I would score off the charts. So I am like a I'm like a storyteller kind of, like, that kind Gift gab. Gift of yeah. I'm trying to see if gift of gab works for me. Yeah. I mean, maybe. But I would just say more storyteller, bullshitter, how are you? Like, my dad would be like, how are you doing, old son? And, you know, you'd say something like, well, I'm doing okay. I got a broke my arm. Damn. I had breaks bigger than that of my eyeball. You know, like, that's how my dad that's how that's where I come from. Uh-huh. And so when I'm when I'm so my dangerous area around sarcasm is not when I'm in a bullshit sports talk thing. Like, on the court, I'm very like, if there's a sellie, I do it. It's obnoxious as hell. That's why we can't ever get out of court today. We probably can't play tennis, or pickleball. It might be the end of a friendship. It could be the end, especially if we ever played as devil's partners. Because if you're gonna come over on my side and take a ball, you damn well better end that point.

I would, obviously. Okay. Alright. So the thing with sarcasm that's hard for me, for people, I think, is not when I'm in my banter mode, but I can be I know this, you'll find this surprising, a very intense person. What? I know. Never. It's shocking. I never had a clue. Yeah. So when I'm intense, I cannot use sarcasm with people. Because it it comes on too strong? It it comes on as passive aggressive meanness. Oh, okay. Yep. I can I can imagine that? Yeah. So Okay. So I'm curious for our listeners. We have new listeners, right? I hope so. How many people because we process this differently. I'm curious about how many people look at these things like you do and say, wait a minute. Like, you're you're, you know, you're a straightforward kind of clear, sincere communicator, and therefore, you shouldn't be sarcastic because that's not who you are. And how many people look at it like I do and say, I interpret that behavior through the lens of what I know about your personality? I wonder which is more common. And I obviously think mine is more common than you're the outlier.

And I'm excited to find out if I'm wrong. Yeah. I don't know. We'll we'll suppose it on LinkedIn and have people weigh in. Oh, we can we can just have people comment on YouTube now. Oh, that's right. And on Spotify. Wait. Do we have comments open on YouTube? We do not have comments open on YouTube. Alright. We can talk about that later. Yeah. We should have a podcast on that. We should. We should have a podcast on comments. I got a lot of thoughts. Let's see that. Because I've got them closed everywhere. And I have them open. Yeah. So we'll Yeah. We'll Yeah. Okay. Let's add that to our list. Support for this show comes from Canva. An idea is just an idea, but actually transforming that idea into a thing, that's where the real work lives. It can be a journey full of pitfalls and banging your head against a wall, or it could be a lot easier than that with Canva. Canva is packed with templates and design tools to turn your idea into something real. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, logos, and websites, whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.

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I think this is a great segue to the topic of today's today's podcast, which is we've already started talking through the thing we didn't get to last episode, which is how could this go wrong? And one way I think this partnership could go wrong is if I am sarcastic in ways that lead you to feel attacked, and then you either get defensive or attack in reverse, and then we end up in the kind of, I think, like, prosecutor spiral that we got into ten years ago. Okay. So What do you think? I think that's absolutely true. I wanna break it down for everyone listening because my hope is that we can do this honestly together, and I'm sure it'll have some strange and weird entertainment value for folks listening to us figure out where we could fail. But I also wanna share this as a tool that we both believe in. So let's walk them back a little bit, and let's talk about this is a premortem. And this is Gary Klein's book. It came out in HBR. I wrote down the date. Do you do you know how old this is? Pre I mean, the research on it even dates back a couple decades now. Does it? Yeah. So 2007 was the big famous HBR article, Harvard Business Review, where he introduced this idea of a premortem. And the premortem, the way and we both use it, and we both teach it, and we you and I are inside working with senior leader teams all the time. And when I teach them this, it goes to shit in fifteen minutes when they try it. Fast. But it's so important for them to try it. It's so important for them to try it, and we'll talk about why it doesn't work as we do it. So this is a premortem. The idea, it's a it's it's two things, I think, together. It's a risk assessment. So Adam and I are gonna do a premortem on the Curiosity Shop. So we're gonna it's a it's a form of doing a risk assessment, And it's also and this is a this is a a research y word, so we'll talk about it. Prospective hindsight.

Prospective hindsight. Nailed it. Define paradox. Yeah. So which I love. You know I love a paradox. I know. I never met a paradox I didn't love. It's true. I've I've come around on those too. Thank you. They're they're they're I think they're really useful. It it's it's being able to see the future in the present, basically. So perspective, looking forward, hindsight, looking backward. So the question that I use for a pre mort go ahead. No. No. Go ahead. The question I use for a pre mortem and how I teach teams to use it is we're sitting at this table, and, you know, we have this new project. It's six months from now, and it's gone to shit. We have absolute this project has absolutely failed. Yep. What will we be talking about around the failure of this? What are the topics that we'd be talking about then that we should be addressing now? We do this very similarly. Okay. Tell me. So I I do a little bit of, a little setup around it Okay. Great. Where I I like to ask, like, many how many of you do postmortems after you fail? And everybody Yeah. Goes Like, yeah. We know the importance of after action reviews and debriefing. And, you know, my reaction to that is that's a great process, but it is the dumbest time to do it. Why would you wait till you've you've already failed? Right. Why why you'd love to have a time machine at that point. Why not have that conversation upfront and try to anticipate and prevent some of those mistakes? And Oh, I love that setup. I'll be borrowing that. It's all yours. Okay. What I what I what I find really powerful about premortems, and I I think this is one of the of Gary's research is, they make people better at seeing around corners, but they also give people the permission to talk about the things that could go wrong that they're afraid to admit.

Amen. So say those two things again. I call them the I call them the turkey peak because in the military, when you look around a corner, because we both work with the military a lot, you know, you're doing the around the corner. So say say the two things why you think they're great. Yeah. So I think the first thing is I I go farther out. I usually ask three to five years. Okay. If the decision you're making right now or the project you're launching is just an unmitigated disaster, what are the most likely causes? And so then you have to start looking in places you haven't looked before. It widens your it takes you out of tunnel vision. It gives you better peripheral vision. I think that's the first thing. And then the second thing is it's a conversation where you're supposed to talk about the risks. Yeah, the invitation. Exactly. And the way you said risk assessment, I never crystallized it, but that's exactly what you're doing. You're inviting people to say, here's what I'm concerned about. Here are some issues that we haven't talked about that really could be a problem. I gotta tell you that my favorite thing about being in the room with teams I'm working with when they run a premortem is the quiet, more introverted Yes. Usually highly analytic people Yep. Who are often told that they are constantly raining on people's parades around enthusiasm and group projects will be the first to raise their hand and say, I think we'll be examining the assumptions around these data. Yes.

And I see also people who tend to be more defensive pessimists than strategic optimists who have learned to self censor because they're dragging people around with their worrying. All of a sudden, they have a voice. Same for people who tend to be highly disagreeable, who sort of have been taught to sand down that edge, can say, oh, well, this is a point where people are actually willing to hear my critique because we can still do something about it. The thing go ahead. Oh, I no. No. Go ahead. No. Go ahead. Okay. Just before we we dive into the specifics, I never thought about this before, but this this has so many applications outside the workplace. I think that when friends become roommates for the first time Oh, God, yes. They should do a premortem. I think that marriages, the premortem conversation, that's more important than the prenup conversation. It it is a 100%. How could this relationship go wrong? I think when you have a child, I think it would have been so valuable for Allison and I to sit down and and say, if if we if we were to mess up parenting, what are the biggest mistakes we we think we might make, and how do we avoid this?

You know, it's interesting because Steve and I have had we didn't call him premortems, but when I was pregnant with Ellen, our oldest, we basically spent I I I can remember it was so powerful. I can remember where I was sitting and what I was wearing when we basically went through what now I know is a premortem about when yeah. Because I was about it was a wild day, actually. I was probably eight or nine months pregnant. I was very pregnant. And he asked me a question on a walk about I was so scared because I was in my PhD program. And when I told the then head of the doctoral program that I was pregnant, his response was, we thought you were going to be someone. Yeah. And so it got very tricky because I got really smart assy and very much like, hey. It's a baby, not a lobotomy. And, like, I I was Wow. Like, I was very defensive, obviously. As you should have been. Yeah. Because Such an inappropriate comment to me. Yeah. And you know As as if you can't have a career and a child? Yeah. Although the research at the time, which he pointed out was, like, parenthood and getting married were really good for male, untenured professors and very bad for female, untenured professors. You know? So that was true. Everybody needed a wife. You know? And so so I was really scared and defensive, and what ended up happening was I got hyperemesis. So I got that thing where my progesterone levels were very high, and so I threw up every day. I had to take a leave of absence from from the PhD program. And it was interesting because it was a female tenured professor who said, you have sat in my class and thrown up in the trash can for the the last time. She said, I've had several miscarriages that I attribute specifically to the stress of academia. We will be here when you are better. And you and, you know, and I I was sick for the first trimester, and then I came back. But it was just this layers of stuff, but that prompted this hard conversation where Steve said, what do you want from your career? And when I said, I wanna start a global conversation about shame and vulnerability. Wow. So that was twenty seven years ago. And then I and he said, who do you think we wanna be? And where do you think who do we not wanna be as parents? Because we had no models of what marriage looked like. There were great things our parents did and a lot of things we wanted to do differently because we just have more information. So we had a long conversation and wrote it down, actually. Like, where where we would look back and think, this is not what we wanna do or who we wanna be. Wow. Yeah. So we actually I I so You did the premortem. We kinda did the premortem. Yeah. It was, because we said things that we things that we heard growing up that we don't ever wanna say. Mhmm. Because I said so. This is my house. Yep. You know, we wanted to say yes every time we could. You know, just things that we were trying to we and the biggest thing that Steve said in that moment, who's a pediatrician, said there was a difference between trauma and adversity. Mhmm. We had a lot of trauma growing up, both of us. We didn't want that for our kids, but we didn't wanna overcorrect and protect them from adversity. Can you just flesh out what the difference is and and how you've done that?

I think trauma sets us back, and adversity makes us stronger. And so I think they were about real assessments of is this uncomfortable, or is this actually unsafe? Yep. You know? Is this something where you can learn and feel protected, or is this something where you will feel unsafe? Mhmm. You know? And I think trauma is about unsafety. Yeah. That's a really helpful distinction. Yeah. I go back to Shelley Urim from Harvard. I saw her one of those things where, you know, go you don't go to a hotel lobby and someone gives a presentation all day, like a a seminar. And she did this thing about what is trauma and what isn't that I'll that we use to inform our parenting a lot. She sat on a she had someone sit on a chair, and she popped a balloon in front of them, and they didn't like it very much. But then she she said, I'm gonna tie your hands and legs to this chair and do the same thing. And that person said, absolute I can't do that. And she said, that's the difference. Un Control. I don't have any control over my own well-being. And so I thought I don't know if that's official. Just for all the therapists out there and all the trauma experts, I am not one. Me neither. We are not you know, social worker psychologists went to the research side, not the clinical side, but I thought the loss of control and safety were interesting. So we did premortem. Powerful. Yeah. We did premortem. One of the things I've also done, which I'll be interested in your in your take on this, I do them with my class. So if this class ends up in your mind being a failure Oh. When it's over Wow. Even though we only have fifteen weeks together a semester, what will we be saying from your perspective and mine? What do your students say most most often on that? The the learning that comes out of a qualitative analysis of what mine are and theirs are is if they don't take equal responsible responsibility for their learning. Yep. That they are passive in the that my job is to teach. Their job isn't to learn. Mhmm. It will also be a failure if my job is to come in from a consumer perspective to make them happy Right. And and not challenge them into discomfort.

That's so interesting. So we do a premortem even when we teach. I didn't realize I've been I've been doing the results of it. Without without having the premortem conversation, I take the postmortem from the mid course and end of semester evaluations that I get every year. And then I open the next year's class by saying one of the common ones is there are always complaints that we don't have enough debate in class because people are afraid of challenging me. And they're also afraid of damaging their relationships with their new classmates, especially with MBA students. Oh, yeah. Undergrads worry about it, too, though. And so I say, look, I don't think we have enough debate in the classroom. And then I give them a mechanism, which is they can hold up a pen if they disagree. And that way, I will jump the line and call on the people with the pen up so that they get to bring in some of that productive dissent. But that's premortem informed Yes. Pedagogy. Right? It is. Yeah. I I never thought to do the actual premortem. I think I I like anything that's a parallel process. Mhmm. You know, that we're doing it, but we're also kind of learning it. Okay. So let's do it. You in.

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So we already covered the of this sarcasm attack spiral. What what's the broader category for that? I think the the broader category is I mean, from my perspective, tell me if this is right, is the disagreement doesn't come from a place of care Yes. And respect. So we will fail if disagreement doesn't come from care. Yes. I I can I add one? Yeah. Please. Okay. Wait. Wait. I I want a little more time to Okay. Okay. To capture other ways we can fail. I've got three more. While we're writing these down, I wanna say one of the reasons why it's important for us to do this is because when you start a podcast, we're building a business that is a podcast. We're not just talent that's been hired to do something that someone we're building actually the business of the podcast together. So all of a sudden, we have found ourselves being cofounders. You know? So we're navigating the founder hard bullshit and a cofounder thing. So that's why this matters. It's not like we can be it's not like we can show up and anchor the news and be like, Anne, today, and then thank you, and then, like, walk out there and be like, I hate you. And then we just come back in the next day. We're behind the scenes building Which we a sustainable business. Which we didn't agree on when we started. No. And there might still be a little bit of of tension around been hard because I've been like, we need to invest more time in this. And he's like, maybe. You know? I'm like, god. Dang it.

That's that's on my list. No surprise. Yeah. Me too. Okay. Hold on. I got one more that I think I wanna capture here, which is Okay. Okay. I've got four. I've got also four. Okay. Go ahead. Do you wanna just compare lists and not explain yet? No. What do you wanna do? What do you wanna do? You just wanted to say no. No. No. No. You just like the reaction you gave. No. I don't wanna do that. Want What do wanna do? I because I don't I don't want to like, I'm gonna add why I said no to my goddamn list. Please do. I just I just wanted to hear everything on yours and then have the full picture of which ones should we spend more and less time on. No. And I don't want to leave what you write open to my interpretation. So I want you to go through them, and I wanna be clear with a playback. Can we do it succinctly, though, before we dive into them? Go. Okay. Alright. So the first one is if we're not aligned on what our team is trying to accomplish. I have something similar. Go ahead. Okay. I that needs no explanation. Right? Okay. Second one is if we end up nerding out and getting too wonky and we lose all the non academics.

Okay. True. I don't have it, but it's true. A third is if we end up being either too timely or too timeless. Agree. Look. No explanation needed. No. And let me just explain what that means because this is, like, a little bit inside baseball. We've had a conversation where we want our we want this to we wanna be with y'all in a way where what we say is timely and feels relevant for your lives, but also isn't like breaking news. What are you thinking about the news yesterday? We want it to be timeless, and we want it to be relevant and meeting the moment at the same time. So that's what that meant. Right? Well, articulate. Okay. Yes. And then the the last one is just not coming up with I think this is the most minor of the four, but not coming up with a communication process that keeps us aligned. Okay. That's very true. I'm firing off quick emails, and you have spent five days, you know, write writing the perfect text.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. So that that's actually already happened in case you wanna know. Alright. So I love the disagree from not a place of care. That's true. We have not built systems that support the organizational goals. That's a broader version of my last point. And you I like yours better. But we just don't build the system. So I'm thinking of James Clears. We do not rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems. So this is also yeah. We'll just do that. Okay. I disagree with James on that, by the way. I think we do both. Interestingly, I agree wholeheartedly. And I've got a three by three sign in our office in Houston that is, like, spotlighted with plants around it just to drive home the point. We don't agree on how businesses should be run. I don't know what this says. We didn't give oh, easy. Oh, I think because of the I think of because of the season we are in our lives and especially me, I've got a I've got a I've got a time on you, age wise. Because of the busyness the busyness of both of our lives and the season of my life that I'm particularly in right now, if this is not energy giving, if this is just becomes energy taking, I don't I think we will call it quits. It will not fail, but we'll say it's failed. Yep. Yeah. I think that's right. I have maybe one more to add Okay. Which is I think if we don't get good at well, I if we don't continue to practice the feedback and repair regularly Absolutely.

Because I have built in the past year that we've been talking about doing this, I have built so much confidence that we can disagree about anything and work it out because we're both committed to fixing whatever mistakes we make. And I think that that to me is is sort of vital to whatever might go wrong in the other categories. Okay. I'm having a meta moment. So I will say that I am shocked that when there's a conflict between us, and there have been several, even if I'm frustrated, which I can get frustrated I think I typed you the word frustrated one time. Yes. Frustrated. Which I failed to anticipate. Via email. You did? I did. I have a a very much faster confidence in our ability to become stronger because of our disagreements and our rumbles. Same. Than than what would be predictable in two people coming together to build a business. Like, it's unusual. But I I'm gonna tell you that I think we have complementary skills here. I think you are much better at apology and repair than I am, and I think I'm pretty good at hard conversations. Yeah. And both of those things need to They both have to happen. Yeah. I mean, like Yeah. You if you are really good at difficult rumbles and difficult conversations, but you withhold repair or you don't know how to do it or apology, it doesn't work. Yep. And if you're really skilled at apology and repair but can't stay in the messiness of a hard conversation It never it gets fully resolved. It doesn't give resolve nothing Right. From Right. The conflict is gonna get repeated. Right. So I think I think we're good. I think we're really good at those things. So I think I like the fact that you said if we continue to do them. I am or is there one thing that we've talked about that you're the most worried about? Yeah. I think well, I think it's Sorry. Think it's the combined category of what it looks like to be a successful team together slash cofound something together. I don't even like calling it a business.

I don't want to build businesses. I think of myself as an intellectual entrepreneur. I wanna build ideas and share them. Right. And I can respond to that or just sit there. Shit works, dude. I'm like okay. Sorry. Oh, an intellectual entrepreneur. Okay. Now okay. So this also reflects how we intervene with the companies we work in too. And you have more impact because you are willing to roll your sleeves up more than I do. I don't know about impact. I mean, I don't I do. Okay. Well, I I am deeply embedded, and I'm, like, brought into conversations and sit in strategy meetings where I'm not only observing the behavior of the leaders, but I'm weighing in how how on how they're thinking about relocating supply chain.

And I I I you cannot give me a parachute faster to get out of those conversations. Like, I I only wanna be in that deep if I'm, like, if I'm running an experiment or doing a longitudinal survey, and then we're gonna publish research out of it. Got it. And I'm doing that too. I'm doing that I'm doing that different. I I do that. We do dare to lead interventions. So dare to lead is the work, and we go in and work with companies. And sometimes these interventions will include 30,000 people, and I'll be working at the kind of the c suite level and the direct reports at the c suite. But they are very tactical, very messy, and very detailed. Like, I'm in the detail. I'm the weeds. I I I'm embedded. Yeah. I mean, I I think I would fall asleep in the first minute. Okay. Yeah. I mean so Is that the one you were most concerned about too? For sure. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we should talk a little bit about the the the logo design as a microcosm of this, or maybe we shouldn't. No. I'm thinking I'm thinking, yes, I think we can because we learn so much. I learned so much from you. I I wanna there are parts of the way you move through the world with the same organizations. We work with a lot of the same organizations, which is weird, that I really admire and am moving toward. And so I've learned a lot from you. I mean, I've really learned a lot from you. Same. I think the logo design is an interesting yeah. It's interesting. What would you say about it? I think I'm nervous. I'm anxious about the conversation a little bit, but let's go. I I don't know if I don't know if it's helpful or not. Mean, I was thinking about a concrete example. I think so you volunteered to have your team take the lead on designing the logo.

And I thought, Okay, we work really differently. You have an in tech team that you collaborate with on almost everything, right? I'm much more autonomous, and project I specific teams that do certain things, but they're not with me all the time. I just have a book team, I have a podcast team, and they're all separate. And so the fact that you have this intact team, I thought, wow, it's really generous of you to volunteer to do this. And also, you have much more aesthetic sensibility and care about design details. And I don't know the first thing about any of it. So it makes sense on all levels. And then you sent me a draft, which I superimposed my mental model of how design works, which is most of my design is book covers. And we just come up with 20 or 30 ideas. And it's very little thought initially put in, because we want to look at a whole bunch of ideas and then align on which directions we like before we do any refining or, you know, improving. And so I thought that's what I was getting. And I was hypercritical, I think. And that was not what I got. Right? No. You got you you you got the best iteration of probably fifty hours of work. And I felt so terrible, so terrible because I I thought it was maybe an hour or two of work that had got into it. But let's let's get underneath Yeah. What was really happening there because this is where shit goes bad in real life Yep. In in our partnerships with our kids and our teams.

What was really going on there is I do have an intact team. I but I have a very new team, some new people. I mean, I I've been, you know, the CEO of a company for a long time. I knew how you felt about business building. So I tried to protect you from it Mhmm. Which is my my therapy and business coaching work for freaking decades, by just giving you something final and then being and and and the what you sent to me was not shareable with a creative team that had been working hours and hours for that because Not even close. Yeah. Because, like, if you lead a creative team, you're you know, it's just different. And so I think what came out of that was me saying to you, you said something like, how are you in an email? Or what are you feeling? Yeah. And I I tried to guess a few of your emotions and missed the mark. And I just said I'm really frustrated. Yep.

And then we had a conversation which was I am trying to find more space and time and flow and freedom in my life. I am like I've I've won the parenting lottery that I have adult kids who wanna hang out with me and Steve. Yep. I am gonna play pickleball, tennis, whatever, six days a week. Not tennis. I'm playing pickleball six days a week. I'm gonna have a different life right now. I I wanna write and do deep thinking. And I said, I don't want to lead this business by myself, and I don't wanna protect you from the sausage making because if we're gonna be in this together. But I teed up an idea to you, which was why don't we not build a business, and let's just be like the talent and let somebody else own the podcast and own the business. And neither of us wanted to do that. And you were like, I don't want that. Then I said, well, then we're signing up to build a business. And how are we gonna do that? And then you said, I'm gonna take equal responsibility for the sausage making. Yeah. And that was one of the best things that's ever happened for me.

I mean, I'm I'm committed. Yeah. And I I've you know, you you talked about Well, one of the things I've learned from you is you not only have, you know, really great collaborative relationships, there's a lot of joy in those relationships. And I think your life is more full because you work with people that you really like and care about. And I do that, but I do it in pieces. And I thought, Oh, it would actually be fun to have a team that's more complete and be part of that team. And I need to learn how to do more of that because my mantra for a long time has been, I wanna try to have maximum impact with minimum interdependence. I wanna be as autonomous and free as possible. And that doesn't work when you're trying to build something collaborative that really makes a difference. So I think I'm on board for that. I think we still have different ideas about how a team can work most effectively and efficiently together. And that's what we're gonna have to work through. And we're doing we're doing it later today. Because you know? And and so I think I have a lot to learn from you, and and I and I want to do that. I I think I think we'll I think as long as we are honest about I think what will kill us both and kill the business is stealth expectations. Yes. That's a great phrase. Stealth expectations. Yeah. I write about that in dare to lead. Yes. Stealth expectations. We put things on the table. We talk about the why behind them. I invest a lot of time up front with teams or try to or believe I do, and I'm not very good at it because I actually want to be an intellectual entrepreneur. And that's why when we got to the point where I thought you were locked into that and not being a co business owner, this shit's not gonna work. Because I'm moving out of that into the intellectual entrepreneur part. Like, and so I can't take that on.

Well, so I think one of the lessons from that was I need to bring people to the table to our team. So it's not just me as an appendage on your team. Right? Right. And I can't be translating things from critical autonomous intellectual to how teams can hear things. No. And I think that that was one of the mistakes that I made, which I knew I was making in the moment, and I still chose to make it. And I'm not proud of that. So you sent this design, which was beautiful, and I failed to say that, right? I had a question about whether it represented what our show was going to And I gathered some feedback, and other people had the same reaction independently. And so I thought, Okay, I need to get that efficiently to you. And Alison happened to be looking over my shoulder when I was writing the email, and she said, You can't say that to Bren. You can't. And I said, Why not? And she said, You need to really spell out that you appreciate, you know, the quality of the work and you just have these questions. And I said, I can't have a real both partnership and friendship where I can't be honest. And I have to walk on eggshells and couch things and pull punches. And I've found it really efficient in my collaborations to just be direct and ask other people to be direct too. And she said, you're gonna regret this. And she was right. Because I could have been I was trying to be clear, but I didn't do it in a kind way.

So I think what's interesting here is I don't I would back so if I were watching this happen with a team that I was working with, what I would say is you were not you missed an essential part of scrum or agile process, which is what does done look like? Yes. And so if we if I would have said, okay. My team's happy to handle. How involved in iteration do you wanna be? I should I yeah. If we had that conversation, I would have said, bring me in early Right. So that I you you don't end up, you know, going yeah. Spinning in a in an unproductive direction collectively. Right. And, also, I'm probably less likely to reject it because I feel some ownership over it. And you are a minimalist. Big time. I'm a maximalist. Like, if you like like, there's that great meme on Instagram. Like, I hate minimalism. What is minimalism? Maximalism. Like, I want my house to look like a Texas brothel. Like, I have 7,000 product I mean, not products, fabrics and textures. I have, like, a lion couch. Less is more Yeah. No. I'm looking for elegant simplicity. Yeah. No. And I'm looking for who lives here? And I bet they chain smoke. That's what I'm looking for when people walk in my house. Like, that's what I'm looking for. You and my grandma would have gotten along so well. I I wish she was here so I could have a cigarette with her and just talk about what You would you would be like this. I love that. So I think what happens so I will see a conflict break out like this on a team, and I will go way back into the process, which I would have said, if you're cobuilding a business, you're not communicating enough. Yep. You're not saying That's right. Let me bring you into and and I'm gonna give you an example of what happened for those of y'all listening. I thought it like, when I think of Curiosity Shop, I think of eel I think of Dickens. I think of a curious you know, you were very clear about no taxidermy, but I really think about a which, you know, I grew up in a deer blind, basically, so it's not it's you know, I think about, like, weird shit everywhere, shelves full of interesting things. Your your agent Richard wrote about it beautifully when we were conceptualizing the name, like, this place where you get lost in the weirdness and the awe and the wonder of a million things. So we sent you a graphic that had, well, that robot to represent, you know, AI. We had viewfinder on an old nineteen seventies viewfinder if you're a kid and grew up with one of those. Mhmm. It had all these things on it, and you're like, and what's all you know, I basically you know, what's all the pawn store bullshit on here? Looks like a show about, like, antiques. Antique right.

And maybe we should have this or that. And and so for me, I was like, woah. We pick those things very specifically. The robot represents AI. The viewfinder perspective taking. Mhmm. The you know, the is and so we had really thought about them. So where we're where we were off and where I think we're in danger is and I'm gonna introduce a new concept. One of the hardest things about strong ground when I was writing it was this idea of what how do we future ready leaders? And what is the what is the collection of mindsets and skill sets that we need to be ready? And one of the things that I've seen up close and personal with everybody in senior leader, I mean, every single senior leader with the exception of engineers, is a real lack of systems thinking. Yep. Right? A real lack of systems thinking. And so one of the things that systems theory has taught me the most, and it's a very integral part weirdly of social work. Social workers, especially MSWs, masters in social, get there, and they're like, okay. How do I help people? How do I community organize or become a clinician or whatever they're gonna do on the big scale of what is social work? And their first class is like systems theory. And they're like, what the hell? Because we think of communities as systems. We think of families as systems. You know? In systems theory, there's this especially Dana Meadows' work, and I'm huge fan of her systems work. There's a big triangle at the top. You is like the iceberg that you see. Underneath the iceberg is a bunch of stuff. If you see a problem and you intervene at the problem, the iceberg level, there's no leverage. You're gonna fix a problem. You're gonna see it again in Mhmm. Two weeks maybe. Yep. As you go down under the water, you go through what are the systems that are not working, what are the behaviors that are not working. And at the bottom, you have mental models. Mhmm. You and I work off different mental models. Very different mental models. Right. So that graphic design was an iceberg issue. Mhmm. But underneath it were mental models. Stealth expectations. Stealth expectations. What's the what's your mental model Yep. About what a graphic should do Yes. That's going to be our logo, that's gonna be that it's ultimately gonna be like this with our pictures in it. You taught me about you look at things like, is it gonna explain to what people or is it gonna immediately The meaning. The meaning. Yeah. For me, with, like, the shop and all that stuff, I was trying to create a place of warmth and belonging and comfort where people could come in from the outside and be like, so much vitriol, so much bullshit. This is a place where we can talk and disagree.

And this is why we complement each other well because we want both meaning and feeling. But would you agree that mental model discussions are rare? Rare and vital. Because, you know, I actually a light bulb just went off as we were talking about system theory on mental models specifically, which is, I think, part of the reason that I have this knee jerk reaction when we start talking about collaboration processes and getting on the same page. I actually have this when we talk about return to office and remote work, too, which we should definitely get to in a future podcast is my favorite concept from systems theory is the idea of equifinality, which is a mouthful, but you Yeah, know go. Yeah. It's the basic idea that in any complex system, are multiple paths to the same it. Yes. And what I often hear from you is some version of, well, in order to build a successful business, you have to. And I just reject the premise of any sentence that starts that way. Like, no, there are many ways to build a successful business. You've got one that works for you. There may be others you haven't tested. I wanna A, C, D, E test those. I've got a few that have worked for me that I wanna have you try out, right? And I think it's it's actually not the process. It's the it's it's me overreacting to what feels like excessive certainty or narrowness around this is the way. Which is actually a threat to success successful systems. I don't think you mean it that way. No. But I do. Your experience. I do mean it that way. Oh, you do?

I do I do mean it that way. I mean it I mean it that way. Message received and and and resisted. Yeah. Yeah. No. I actually think I mean it that way. That's so interesting. And I think it's something I need to change. But, again, it's deeply personal, which is if I'm not doing it the way that's a lot of caregiving and time for me, I'm not being the leader that I wanna be. Mhmm. And I would I I guess the question I would ask on that is, are you is this about being the leader you want to be, or is it about being the leader that the show and the team need? Two different questions, and I need to learn more. Same. For sure. Same. For sure. But I think the equifinality I mean, I think that is a big that that is a big part of functioning systems. Mhmm. And so what we need to then I I actually think naming that expectation, right, I'm I'm always gonna assume I will always assume that things are equifinal. And so if you're attached to a process, I'm gonna find it more persuasive if you explain to me, here's what else I tried and didn't work. Or here's, you know, here's the logic. I I have a really hard time accepting it's a parent it's the parenting point you made earlier. It almost feels like a because I said so.

That's so interesting. And you know where I default to that? We're gonna wrap up in a couple of minutes, but I will just this is this is a new thing we should write down as another podcast episode idea. I thought I got a lot of mentoring from Bob Iger's work on straddling the line between being thoughtful and decisive. And I've always gotten a lot of praise from being very decisive. Right? My coach recently told me in the last couple months that she you know, it was that, you know, can I invite you to think about you know, fuck? This is my response to the invitations to think about. Can I invite you to think about how your decisiveness may be over decisiveness to deal with anxiety? Oh. So I think when I am in the yes chef mode, which I know is not good leadership, unless you're in a kitchen, which I've worked in for a long time waiting tables. But, like There's a time and a place for it. There's a time and a place for it. Right? I think I can get overly decisive Yes.

And when I am anxious or in time scarcity. And I think we built this We scrambled. We scrambled Yep. And got scrappy. Yep. And I can and I was anxious because I'm also you know, I got a lot of stuff going on. My oldest is getting married, which is so exciting. And so I think I get overly decisive. So that's a strength overused for you or misused? It's a strength overused. And I didn't see the anxiety part of it, but it makes so much sense. And my mistake was failing to recognize what was causing it and instead just pushing back on the decisiveness? I don't know that that's your responsibility to understand it because I I I actually I'm trying to figure out how that would play out for the folks listening in a team. I think I really wanna put out an idea that for our next podcast, we talk about the idea of above and under the line. I think we should. I think that's really helpful.

And I think Oh. Tell me. Well, I'm just I think Okay. So in a team, ideally, what I would advise someone else to do and here, we're drinking our own champagne, but it feels more like eating our own dog food. This is way easier to teach than it is to do. Oh, my God. Yes. I yes. So what I would advise somebody to do in this situation is what I should have done is I should have gone to you and said, Hey, Brene, like, know you to be extremely thoughtful and nuanced and complex in the way that you think things through. And here, you seem, like, really kind of locked into one direction. Help me understand what's behind that. The lead in got me worried because I was like, but here, you're being a complete asshole. So the lead in got me worried. Okay. So let me try it again. Let me let me take two. Take two. Okay? Hey. I'm I'm really surprised to see you locked in to one direction. That's not how you normally operate. Not working. Nope. No. I think all you would have had to say is if I would have said what what happened on the text was, yes, we need to invest a bunch of time up front with our teams. And you said maybe the research is okay. So this so let me so if we wanna get into it, so I said, I think we need to spend some time upfront and really get aligned with our teams. You said maybe the research is torn on this. Maybe a new a podcast episode, question mark. And I think what would have probably been helpful for me is I have a different experience. Are you open to trying Yes. What different like, Curiosity? Yes. Ironically? Yes. That would have been helpful. Yeah. Curiosity about I have a different experience. Yes. But would you be open to exploring with me?

Yeah. I can do that. That's a much better way to frame it. Yeah. Maybe. That for me It's an invitation. It's an invitation. Yeah. And it brings a little bit of playfulness too because you love learning. I do love I learning. Do And where I get def can get defensive with you sometimes is because I am so embedded on teams and do this work when your response is, I'm not sure the data don't say that. I'm like, fuck you, dude. Like, that's exactly that's like That's us replaying our twenty sixteen debate. Yeah. You're like, here's what I have seen and lived. I'm like, here's the meta analysis, and here's the randomized controlled experiments. And most of the interesting learning happens in the tension between Now, those two I think the other thing that I was really struck by here, which we can work through as a specific example of this, is I think one of the things I learned from you is you said, I need to spend more time with my teams so that they feel valued and don't feel dismissed. Yeah. I looked at that and I thought, Oh, that's one way to do that. But one of the ways I make people feel valued is I respect their time, and I don't waste it by drag dragging them into meetings. And I will instead bend over backward to sing their praises and make it really clear to people why I'm excited to be working with them and the unique value they're bringing to the table. Like, oh, we're actually we there's a there's a common value here. There's a common value. And so we just have really different approaches to that, and we need to figure out which ones are relevant when.

Yeah. And I think I was really I was really locked into this is new. We have six or seven people on it. We don't have any systemic communication tool in place. Nope. And we do not have alignment across six or seven people about what impact how we're defining done, how we're defining excellent, what impact is, and we have no shared goals. So you're in threat rigidity mode. Oh, Jesus Christ. I don't know whether I it sounds like shit, but what what I don't know what it means. No. There's a there's a classic Barry Stott et al paper on threat rigidity, which is, you know, under threat, People tend to do the opposite of what a premortem does and lock into the familiar and kinda proven way. Absolutely, I was not there. Oh. Alright. I was I I I I strike that from the record, your honor. Yes. That's good. Struck but not forgotten. No. I was not in threat rigidity mode. I was in we have, on my side, four people excited running in four different directions. Oh. We have really big missed balls that were upsetting to you Yes. And upsetting to me Yep. That really almost jacked with our schedules to the point where this wasn't not gonna be happening. Yep. And we need to sit down and invest time upfront to getting aligned and putting communication systems. So I was not in threat rigidity. I was in Can I call it cattle herding mode? No. Nope. Nope. It it's much more based in, I think, solid leadership principles that we were in the beginning of forming a new team Yep. And building alignment and clarity of mission and purpose. That's what I would say I was in. That makes sense. And that that's going to require a time commitment. Yes. We need to do that. Yeah. That's what I think I was in.

Well, we're we're about to do that. We're we're we're leaving this podcast and going into that first meeting. Before we wrap Yeah. Do you have some closing questions? Oh, yeah. I thought it'd be fun if we did this because, because I'm curious about you, actually. So what are you listening to right now? I just wanna know these these basic questions. What are you listening to right now? Yeah. I listened to a Science Versus episode on narcissism, where they got somebody who was diagnosed with the clinical narcissistic personality disorder to talk about his experience of discovering that and then trying to overcome it. It was riveting. Okay. We'll put in the show notes because I wanna listen. What are you watching? Anything you've binged lately or watched? Family tradition, survivor, currently season fifty. Rooting for oh, how do I do this without spoilers? Oh, you shouldn't. -GRETA: At the beginning of the season, I can say this. Yes. I started out with high hopes for Camilla and for Genevieve and for Christian. What do you like about Survivor? Survivor is I mean, it's a giant psychology experiment in trust and collaboration and deception and rivalry and competition. And it's just watching people build relationships while also trying to strategize. It's a it's a microcosm of what we do every day.

Okay. Any read I I just can't. I can't do survivor, but, but my kids are obsessed. What are you reading? I I just finished reading Dana Suskin's book, Human Raised And? About how to prepare kids and also protect them in the age of AI. Phenomenal. Really? Worth three? Recommend. Tell me a takeaway. I think it comes out in July, so I probably need her permission to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. What about you? What are you let me go backward. What are you reading right now? I am reading a new book, in the Shetland series. What's that? I I read a lot of British mysteries, folks. You get ready. I mean, this is like shut the Shetland Islands. Yeah. So I'm reading a Shetland book right now. It's probably one of my favorite TV series on television. I think you have to watch it on, like, Acorn or BritBox or something, one of the British import television. I watch a lot of British television. I'm was I'm watching oh my god. I watched heated rivalry. Just finished it for this third time. Yeah. You're all in. Yeah. I'm all in. Haven't seen it. Oh god. I love it so much. Sounds like it's made for Bridgerton fans. No. It's well, I'm well, I was just gonna say I finished Bridgerton, and I finished Heated Rivalry, so my life is open now, for watching. Both were great season four, and then Heated Rivalry was good. I was talking to Astaire Perel last night about her commentary on why the obsession with heated rivalry. And I think it not only is it a beautiful love story, but she said every stressful conflict point in that show was met with very beautiful reparative and corrective behavior. There you go. So, like, something hard would happen. You like, you have this feeling of, like, foreboding. Like, oh, shit. This is not gonna go. And then the person shows up, and it's so wonderful. And it was just I don't know. It was healing in some way to me, so I love it. And then what was the last one? Listening. What are you listening to? I have been You're gonna say Rory, aren't you? Oh, I I definitely listen to a a shit ton of, the rest is politics UK version with Rory and Alistair. I have so many bones. We should maybe do, like, a foursome and just, like, fight it out, like, some kind of maybe doubles tennis, take it out on the court. I've I've been listening to a lot of that. I think it's really helpful to have a non US political opinion that's more centered on the world. So I think that's interesting. And then, Rosalia, the just what a what a what a woman. And then also listening to a lot of Tom's Van Zant, which I always go back to. We have so little overlap. We have very little like we're different people. We're we're we're yeah. But I'm curious about you. Same. Okay. See you next time. Looking forward to it. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bren Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Thanks to Canva for their support. With incredible tools to boost your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real. Canva. It's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.

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