BS Disclaimers, Invisible Armies, and the Importance of the Words We Choose

What's up, y'all? I'm Skyler Diggins, seven time WNBA all star, Olympic gold medalist, and mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly twenty years covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom. And this is and mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds, dropping May 14. Tap in with us. Does anyone really know what goes on behind closed doors at the Supreme Court? Four years ago, I got a tip about the court, and I was not in the market to cover it whatsoever. But this tip was about a secret influence campaign that had been carried out inside the court. As you know, the very idea of that is outrageous. I'm Preet Bharara. And this week, New York Times investigative journalist Jodi Cantor joins me to discuss her expose on the court's shadow docket. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network.

Hi, everyone. I'm Bren Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And today, we're here to watch Adam be really generous to me. I don't wanna be wrong on this topic today. I do not I cannot be wrong on this topic today. I am very vested in my rightness. Wow. Okay. So you're already appealing to my core values and asking me to violate other values. You sort that shit out on your own, but I need to be right. You you you sort your value hierarchy over there. You you do that over there, but we're gonna talk about two insidious Machiavellian communication tools that people use that are my least favorite in the whole world. I can't wait. But I should say, a wise friend once told me it's more important to get it right than to be right. Yeah. I call bullshit. But okay. So I think we all know this first one. It is I I'm guilty of doing it, and I've been on the receiving end of it. And it's hard. It I I call it in my work the Invisible Army. So in a work context, you're my boss. And I come up to you and I say, hey, Adam. We're all we're really exhausted. All of us are really tired of the way these priorities are shifting. We're really kind of sick of the pressure on us to do more with less, and we need a break. What's your first instinct there?

I wanna hear more. Okay. Let me let me tell you my first instinct. Let's turn this scenario around. You come to me and say, we're all exhausted. We're tired. We're we're the constant reprioritization's killing us. We need a break. I'm gonna wanna look at you and say, you got a mouse in your pocket? Like, who's we? I I I cannot I I this Invisible Army, we all think, we all believe, we're all wondering. Like, come to me with the eye. That's important enough. But for me, the invisible army of the people that are backing up your you know, and even in in in personal in the personal world. Listen. We're all we we were we're all really disappointed by this, or, you know, we all think you should talk to dad about this. This is so fascinating. This is exactly the kind of communication I teach. You teach people to say we? Absolutely. It's I mean, it signals that you're not selfish, that you're thinking about the good of the group, and that, you know, you're you're not raising something that's idiosyncratic. It's actually relevant to everyone. It's chicken shit.

I I I completely disagree. Unless you're willing to say to me, hey, Adam. Do you have a second? I sat down and spoke with Sabrina, Jose, and Jack around what's going on, and we kinda came up with some ideas. They were not able to meet with you, and but they said that I could talk to you about this. I mean, I I think it's terrible. Like, I I literally, like, unless you have a critter in your pocket, I don't ever wanna hear your Invisible Army. Okay. I do. I wanna hear it all the time, but I don't I don't want it to be invisible. So I think what you just outlined is ideal in an environment with high psychological safety. That's that's the standard I'm aspiring to all the time. And anyone should be able to speak on behalf of the group, or ideally, everyone is speaking independently for themselves. In environments that lack psychological safety, if you're in a culture of fear, if you're in a culture of blame and shame, it's it's really risky to put yourself out there. And so if I'm the one to come to you and say, hey, I've heard a lot of people complaining about this, everyone else is afraid to tell you that for me, that's an act of courage. Right? Because I'm the messenger, and I might get shot. And that's so important that I'm willing to raise it anyway on behalf of the group. You did not say we once in your role model here. You said Oh, I'm not role modeling it. I'm explaining I'm just saying you said, I'm coming to you because here's what I'm hearing, and I think other people are concerned about it. So I wanted to let you know. That is not the Invisible Army.

Isn't it, though? No. Aren't they less visible? No. No. No. That is no. I think that's very different than you arming yourself with we all believe, we all think. You're saying, I'm observing this. I wanted to let you know about my observation. You're not representing you're not you're not representing a delegation a fake delegation of fake ass people, because you're you're not using the I statement. And so That's so interesting. Yeah. I think it I think this is really important because, literally, this Invisible Army and and the way it plays out in family dynamics is, you know my sisters and I talk about this all the time. Yeah. We all think you're being a real asshole here. Like, we who? I'm not gonna say because, you know, again, because you're an asshole. No. No. Like, if you think I'm being an asshole, I wanna hear that from you. But, again, unless you've got people in your pocket, and if you do, bring them out and then deshrink them up to human size, and let's have a real adult conversation. I think the Invisible Army I think if you're teaching people to have the courage to say, there's something going on I think you should know about. I can't speak clearly to people's comfort levels about coming to you, but here's something I'm seeing. I think it's getting in the way of the work we're doing, and I want to let you know about it. That's really respectful and thoughtful. If you're coming in a lead fascinating. Yeah. If you're leading with we all think, I I I I'm gonna wanna know who. And I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you why this is such why this is so important right now. The chain the velocity and volume of change right now is so untenable that there are no way there's no way people can keep up. We we can't keep everybody informed every second about the changes that are happening. In the absence of data, we make up stories. We just know that because we're a meaning making species. It does require psychological safety and good and daring really good daring leadership to say to your team, listen. I'll tell you what I know when I know. If you find yourself making up stories about what's happening, I want you to check them out with me. And you it's as simple as saying, hey. The story I'm making up right now is this. When you start using Invisible Armies, you are taking small collections of fire and pouring gasoline on them. And it creates such a toxic environment. We all believe. We all think.

So I have a different reaction to this. I think the two versions that you think are so different for me are almost identical. And when so let let me let me actually just react to what you just said. I think when you say it creates a toxic environment to bring an invisible army, I what I see is people are doing that because they're in a toxic environment. That is a survival strategy. I'm coming to you and I'm saying, hey, I've been elected by a group of people who are too afraid to even give you their names. I'm speaking up because I think you're gonna lose some really amazing people, and they're they're just too nervous to even put their, you know, their thoughts out there in a way that could damage their reputation or their relationship with you. And I know that it's it's ironic that that this is my reaction, not yours, because you're the one of the two of us who's normally more sensitive to to power differences. Right? And I just look at this, and I see I'm not like when when someone comes to you and they have the Invisible Army, yeah, I get I get that in some cases, you know, it's a strategy. And they're they're trying to bolster credibility, or they're trying to build up support for something that they know is a little self serving or, you know, kind of just a a personal ask. But that's not that's not how I see it unfold in most of the organizations I work with. I see people do this when they feel they have no other choice. And they say, okay. Look. This is a culture in which people do not speak truth to power. And so this is the only way I can do that safely.

So this this is this is gonna maybe get too nuanced for the podcast where listeners and watchers are gonna be like, what's happening here? Again, I did not hear you, in your example, use an invisible army. I heard you Wait. So I heard you take I heard you take full responsibility for what you were doing. I'm coming to you. Mhmm. I was elected by a group of people who are fearful about coming to you to let you know these things. That is very different than saying, we believe, we feel, we want. That that those are those are to me even neuro linguistically very different things. Okay. That's that's a helpful distinction. Now okay. So when you said Invisible Army originally, I was thinking, okay. You're objecting to any time I come and speak on behalf of a group, but you don't know who they are. And you're only objecting to a subset of that when I'm claiming to proxy a bunch of people who are hidden or unknown, and I'm not willing to even take ownership over the fact that I agree with them. Right.

Huge difference. Yeah. That is a big difference. I agree with that. Yeah. And I have to tell you that, like, when I think about this from an organizational perspective as a former union steward, that was my job. You know? But in in not until this very second sitting here did I even think about the possibility that that's where this training came from. So as a union steward, I off I I had to be I never I was trained to never say, we believe, we feel. Now I was trained to believe there's a problem on the floor. Yes. This is what's generating fear. It's getting in the way of work. It's creating burnout and call ins, call outs. So that's different because I'm taking responsibility for coming to you with a problem that I'm observing. I'm not pretending to represent exactly how people feel and think and believe because I'm scare I'm scared that me believing and thinking and feeling it isn't enough.

Yes. Yeah. I've never I've yes. I have never noticed this distinction until you brought it up, and I I think it's important and right. You know, it reminds me of some some research I published years ago with Sharon Parker and Catherine Collins, where we studied how often people spoke up with concerns and suggestions. Mhmm. And we were interested in whether supervisors valued and appreciated it or whether they they tended to reject it. And what our data showed was that supervisors liked it if you were doing it for prosocial reasons. If it seemed like you were trying to help the group and, you know, you were bringing up a a problem or a solution Yeah. That could benefit the whole team. But if supervisors perceived it as self serving rather than benevolent, they tended to dismiss it or even penalize it. And I've always then assumed that the we language is a way of signaling. Hey. This is this is a collective problem, and I'm trying to help all of us. But I think you're right that if you do that in a way that that that essentially says, yeah, here is here there's a there's a group with a uniform opinion, and I'm gonna tell you I have read all their minds. I have captured all of their feelings and thoughts, and I'm gonna tell you everything that they want, that's not credible. That is manipulative. It's So that that's the thing that we're trying to avoid here in communication.

For me, well, to be honest with you, if you come in and say we all believe this or we all think this, I immediately don't trust you. I don't either. And it's not it's not just you. I now have doubts about your group too because if you're telling me the truth, best case scenario, then we're in the middle of groupthink. You got a bunch of people who are hive mind, and they're just clones of each other. They're not thinking independently. They're not coming to their own conclusions. They're sharing all of the same assumptions, and that means their thinking is faulty and flawed. So I don't I don't wanna listen to it even if you're being honest with me. Right. And so they just just listen for listen for the accountability shift here. I wanted to talk to you about something I'm observing in the team. And I'm not sure whether you're hearing this from other people or not, but I felt like I feel like it's an important thing to talk to you about. Here's what I'm seeing, and here's how it's disrupting work, and here's how it's creating a lot of anxiety and self doubt. This is my observation. Versus, I came in to tell you that we all think this, we're all feeling this, and we all believe this.

Yes. And if I come back to you and say, well, I don't understand why no. No. No. No. Don't get mad at me. No. No. I'm just saying that this is what everybody's thinking. This is what everybody's feeling. So I think precision, especially right now when shit is so hard, precision of language as it relates to what you're representing and what you're accountable for is I was gonna say king, but is even more important that it's queen. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Support for the show comes from Shopify. There's always something a little scary about starting your own business, and listeners of this show know that when you take on any endeavor, there will be bumps along that road and a lot of what ifs. But tools like Shopify can help settle those nerves and make things way less intimidating. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all ecommerce in The US from household names like Rare Beauty and SKIMS to brands just getting started. Shopify can help you build an online store that matches your brand's style with hundreds of ready to use templates. And whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify can help accelerate your efficiency. Their AI tools can help you write product descriptions, page headlines, and even help enhance your product photography. Best yet, Shopify can be your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/curiosity. Go to shopify.com/curiosity. That's shopify.com/curiosity.

Hey. I'm Matt Bouchel, comedian, writer, and floating head you may or may not have seen on your FYP, and I'm starting a brand new podcast. Wait. Don't swipe away. It's called that sounds like a lot. I'm gonna start by breaking down whatever insanity is happening in the world, and then I'll sit down with a comedian or actor or writer or, honestly, anyone who responds to my DMs. This is not the place to get the news, but it is a place to feel a little bit better about it. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast. That sounds like a lot, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. This week on Network and Chill, I'm joined by Tank Sinatra, the meme king, with over 15,000,000 followers across Tank's good news, influencers in the wild, and his personal account. Tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is, how much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes, and how meme culture, think Preparation H, starter packs, and a perfectly timed screenshot, is actually reshaping how we think about money and value. Get ready for a conversation that'll change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth, and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/ You're Rich BFF.

Okay. I wanna I wanna talk about I think it sounds like we're gonna talk a lot about language today, which is great because you you and I are both word nerds. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I don't think enough people spend enough time choosing their words carefully. Before before we we talk more about language, two things that jumped out at me on this. Number one, have you have have you been watching Pluribus? I can't. I tried. I wanted to. I just it's so it I go to bed at night, and I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I I can't. So but tell me tell me what you're seeing and watching. I'm obsessed with the whole concept. I'm only two episodes in, and I don't wanna spoil it for people who haven't seen it. But Okay. The the reaction I had watching it and seeing the way that a collective communicates as one gave me the same ick that your we all believe and we all think, and we all want gave me. And Oh, god. That's so interesting.

I think anybody who wants to understand viscerally why you're so bothered by one claiming to fully represent a whole, Like, just go watch two episodes of Pluribus. Done. Is I mean, I heard the acting's amazing. Is it it's just It's it's been stunning so far. But Wow. Okay. More more to watch. Maybe I'll it try again. Okay. What's the other thing you wanted to like, I love this I love this pop culture reference. Okay. The the the other one's the opposite of pop culture. But I was just thinking about this, you know, this how do you approach speaking up in a low versus high psychological safety climate question that we were talking about. And one of the questions I get asked a lot, I get I get tons of questions from managers and leaders about, like, should we do an anonymous survey of our people, or should we make the survey identified? And I've always been torn on this, and I'm curious to hear your take because, let me say this differently. I think an anonymous survey is an invisible army of sorts, but I don't think it's the kind you object to.

No. Because I think an anonymous survey is individuals. There's not a there's not a representation. There's not a royal we there. So I think there's there's a representation, a one on one representation of data to person even if that person is de identified or anonymous. I I I think whenever I, of course, I get this question often as well. The thing that's the the first thing because I work from kind of the social work ethic of do no harm first. The first thing that always comes up for me is how anonymous really is your anonymous survey. What's your sample size? How's it being reported? Is it tied to IP address? I would never commit to anonymity if it's not true anonymity, which really is about team size and all kinds of technology stuff. And I think for me, the answer to that question is always, what is your intention? You know, what are you trying to I have really mixed feelings about three sixties as well. I I there's I I've worked with one company out of 30 that does it well. You know? Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. They're hard, and they're flawed. And a flawed a a three sixty that has flawed design, flawed implementation, and flawed analysis can just blow up a team and a person.

Yeah. I've I've I've seen it happen. And, you know, the the survey dilemma is interesting because I think on one level, I I want I wanna get to a point where people can say what they really think and put their names on it. The bigger the organization, the larger the team, the harder that is. And so one of the things I've yeah. I've sometimes had leaders say, but, you know, I I create I create an environment where, you know, everyone can tell me the truth. My door is always open. You know, I'm I'm nonthreatening. I'm I'm inclusive. And sometimes I say, okay. Let's run the test. Ask people to give you direct feedback, and then we're gonna do an anonymous survey. And the larger the gap is between what people say to your face and what they say under the cover of secrecy, the more of a problem you have with psychological safety. And That's interesting. I think I think there's some there's something to be said for, like, let's let people be invisible, but let's not have one person claim to be in charge of the army.

I I think that's I think that's exactly right. The biggest problem with the Invisible Army is the purported representation. And so yeah. And I think the other thing that is interesting to me is if I always ask leaders if their door is open and they're receptive to feedback, then why are they asking me about doing an anonymous survey? I mean, so you you would know. The other thing is I I am pro anonymity in any culture where there are not open conversations about power. So that's my litmus test. If you talk openly about power, if you talk openly about identity, if you talk about, you know, being the only anything in a room, if you if if those are just kind of normative cultural conversations, then I'm more open to believing that the door is really open. If any conversation about power or equity is off limits, then, you know, I'd wear gloves when I completed the anonymous survey. You know? Just yeah.

That's a great point. Okay. Do you wanna go to the next one? And this I'm probably more loaded for bear on this one than even the first one. Wait. Why are you laughing? I I'm I'm just laughing because you were the one who said a few episodes ago, like, we we shouldn't try to amplify tension. We should just, yeah, share and then see where the tension emerges. And here you are saying, I am loaded. I wanna be right. I I do wanna be right here because these are, like, these are the this one is really tough. So I'll introduce this by saying I call these bullshit disclaimers. I know there are other terms in the in the research for them, but they're wrong. And then I wanna, let me just give you the first one. Anything that starts with look. I don't mean to be critical, but. I don't mean to be shitty, but. I hate to be rude, but. That's my least favorite one. Not to be rude, but Yeah. You're about to say something really inappropriate and offensive. Thank you for giving me a heads up. That's it. So let me translate those for you. I'm gonna be like the translator.

When someone says, I don't mean I don't mean to be critical, but what they're saying is, I'm getting ready to be very critical, and I do not wanna be held accountable for that behavior. When they say, hey. Listen. I don't mean to be shitty, Adam, but they're getting ready to be shitty, but they don't wanna be held accountable for being shitty. That this is the translation here. Here's here's the translation ring. Look. Not to be rude, but translation. I'm fixing to be really rude. I do not wanna be held accountable for it. That's what's happening here. Thoughts. These are hedges, soft openings. They're called a lot of things. I call them bullshit, but go ahead. I love it. I love it. These these disclaimers the the kinds of disclaimers that you're talking about, which are a different kind than the sort I wanna defend Okay. Great. Which is which is good news, I think. The kind that you're talking about are I never thought about it as escaping accountability. Oh, 100 But I think you're spot on.

I had a different way of thinking about why those bother me, which is when somebody says not to be rude, but I think that they're they're trying to they're trying to preempt what they realize is a reasonable reaction and prevent you from having it. I yes. And ironically, think it has the opposite effect. Right? It it puts your guard up and leaves you to say, wait a minute. You're what why are you mentioning rudeness? Why are you saying not to be critical? You must have had a critical thought. And so I think it's it's counterproductive regardless of, you know, regardless of what the person's intent is, that they're they're trying to escape accountability, it doesn't work because it draws your attention to the very thing that they're trying to minimize. Yes. And it's it is absolutely a it's an accountability trapdoor. And I'm just realizing again in real time for the first time that the reason I do not like the Invisible Army or the bullshit disclaimer is for the same reason. It lacks accountability. They I I I just don't like the lack of accountability. So what what I teach people to do and I I mentor a lot of women. And I mentor a lot of women who are first time college graduates, undergrad graduates that are getting PhDs, and they're on the receiving end of these things all the time. And so I think to combat the bullshit disclaimer, I like to go to I wanna share this with you. It's one of my favorite thing. It's it's Alberto Brandolini's I love this. The bullshit asymmetry principle. Do you know it?

I love Brandolini's laws. Go. Brandolini's bullshit asymmetry principle. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it. And so you have to do some work to to to really combat this. So let's do a role play. Are you game? I'm ready. Okay. I want you to say, look. I really don't wanna be critical, but like, you're starting a sentence. Renee, I don't wanna be critical, but Okay. Wait. Wait. Let me stop you there. I'm so glad that you don't wanna be critical. Do you wanna take a few minutes to find a more productive way to share your feedback and coaching with me? Because I'm really I'm really grateful for your commitment to not be critical. Wait. Are you saying we're not allowed to be critical? I thought we wanted to have high standards and be discerning. Oh, no. We can be discerning, and we can I love the coaching, and I love the feedback? But when you start a sentence with, I don't mean to be critical, what I hear is I'm going to be critical. I don't wanna be accountable for the behavior. So I'm glad you're making a commitment to not do that. Let's try it again. Like, this is one of my favorites. I actually took this from a real life experience. I'm not trying to tear you down. But so you try you try the intervention here. Look, Adam. I'm not trying to tear you down.

But Oh. Oh, wait. Bren, it's really surprising to me that you would even think that I would think that you're trying to tear me down. We we have a strong relationship. I know we care about each other. Why would tearing me down even cross your mind? I love this. But, okay, you get bonus points. A plus. This is what I mean. Like, you have to have a little tolerance for interrupting, which I normally don't love. But I think if you want to hold people accountable, you have to stop them right there before they get to the shitty part and say, great. I appreciate the commitment. Either do you need more time to find a better, more productive way to give me some coaching or feedback? Or wow. What you just did was great. I'm gonna add it to my repertoire. What did you like about it so I can learn? Oh, wait. You kinda stopped me, which you have to do. And then you said, I I'm surprised that tearing me down even came up for you. I I would not expect that because we care for each other, and we give each other tough feedback sometimes, but in a caring way. How did you get to tearing me down? Like, again, it's an accountability shift.

Yeah. Yeah. It's asking you to be accountable for the phrase that you put on the table and the sentiment behind it. It's also I mean, what I was what I was trying to do there was just welcome you to the Curiosity Shop. Like, I am I'm so curious about why you would approach me from a tearing down lens. And you should be curious about that too, I hope. That's really interesting. I'm coming from the shut the fuck up lens, which is different than the welcome to the curiosity shop lens. Okay. And why why is that why is that different? I think Why is what different? Why do we approach this differently? Okay. We're trying to get to the same point. We're trying to accomplish the same thing. We have different styles. I don't know. Maybe not. I'm trying to say, woah. Take accountability for what you're going to say, and don't try to squirm out of accountability before you even say it. And I feel like you're trying to say, woah. I'm surprised to hear that language from you. I'm curious where it's coming from.

Mhmm. I I I don't know that we are coming from this. You're coming from curiosity. I'm coming from accountability. I think there places maybe. Maybe. But do we wanna land the person at the same place? I wanna land it at the other person doing some questioning and rethinking of what their intentions were and what kind of relationship we have and saying, I really I really ought to approach both my goals and my communication style a little more thoughtfully. Okay. That's really wild because let me tell you what happened when I was like, I'm gonna add that to my repertoire. Let me tell you what immediately happened in my my back processor. This is so wild that this is happening in real time. What happened in my back processor when I said I'm gonna add that to my list of things to do is the people I thought about immediately were people I care about and with whom I have a relationship with. So I think that if I care about you, what you're saying is better curiosity and connection and care is better than if I don't really know you. And, I mean, I've had people stand up in a Q and A at an event and be like, listen. I don't mean to drag you in front of everybody, but I'm like, woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Great. I wanna hear what you have to say. But if you don't wanna drag me, then think of a different way to say it.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So our approaches are yeah. I was thinking about this in the context of an established relationship. Right. So I think in that Yeah. To say, woah. Woah. Great. Where where did tear me down come from? Or I don't mean to be rude. Woah. Before you even go, I don't experience feedback from you as rude. I I mostly experience it as helpful or at least coming from a place of concern or curiosity. What about this is feeling like different different for you or, like, it's going to be hard or rude? Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. But that's that means you can say what that is. Let me tell you what you let me tell you the difference between yours and mine. To me, yours telegraphs care, connection, and relationship, and mine telegraphs, your disclaimer will not get you out of accountability with me. I don't know you. I don't know what you're getting ready to say, but just know that that's not going to work. Two different populations.

Different populations, but also different speakers. I I wonder I I'm just thinking about gender stereotypes here. It will surprise no one that women have to work harder to prove their competence than men. And so you asserting some degree of strength and authority, which gets taken for granted when I speak as a man much more so, is that is that partially gendered? I was with you on the gendered part till you got to to you got to the why the gendered about me do me doing this as a as a as a show of confidence or confidence even. I think the gender part that that started to ring true for me was permission to be rude, critical, tear people down, and tear people apart without being held accountable for it. That seems very male to me today. Yeah. And so yeah. And Particularly to do that to a woman. To a woman. Right. With yeah. And so but other power differentials, I think, exist as well. And so there's other relationships where that that plays out. I think the difference for me really comes down to, and it's quite clear in my mind, to be honest, investment. When I wanna get under something and get curious about it, I want what, like, what in coaching, would call channel three communication, listening for connection. Not listening just to understand or listening to respond. Yeah. But real channel three listening for care and connection. I'm not even on channel three if I don't know you. Right. If I know you, I might respond with, woah. I don't know what's gonna come next, but the tearing down is not something we usually do together. I think that I because I I wouldn't I was imagining if one of my kids said to me I would have a hard time imagining because I don't I don't think we talk like this to each other in our family. But if one of my kids said, look, mom, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't imagine saying, hey. Then do you need more time to figure out something, you know, a way to do this where it's that's not rude? I would imagine saying, woah. Before you even go there, I don't ever experience your feedback to me as rude. Yeah. The then I think I would say with one of my I I might say, do you want more time to think about what we're gonna talk about or something? But I would be on channel three communication.

And if you're if you're dealing with a stranger or somebody you don't have a meaningful relationship with, it seemed like your motivation was more to neutralize it. You're you're gonna you're gonna almost like you were almost preemptively putting the person in their place or shutting down their tactic. No? It wasn't neutralizing. It was what's a nice way to say proceed with caution? Like, no. Really. Oh, so you're waving a red flag. I'm waving a flag that said, I don't know what's coming next, but just because you started this way does not mean I'm not going to hold you accountable for the behavior. So let me just let me get let me issue a preemptive caution here that I recognize your disclaimer. I understand that the energy it's gonna take me to intervene right now is an order of magnitude greater than the bullshit you just created with your disclaimer. So Yes. Be thoughtful.

So it's a it's bit of a wake up call. You are treading on thin ice. I'll wait until you get to the right one. Keep going. Like, what what are I'm other trying to I'm trying to find I I I'm I'm trying to well, I'm I'm cycling through the different things I thought as you were saying that. So another one was, no, that's not quite right either. What what let's do another one, actually. And I'm gonna I'm gonna try to pay attention to my reaction real time. Okay. Okay. I've got one for you. Okay. Okay. Bren. Yeah. I've been biting my tongue on this for a while and just no offense. But Okay. Woah. Woah. Woah. When you say no offense before you even start, I get genuinely concerned that you're looking for permission to say something offensive. And our relationship really means a lot to me. So if that's what's coming next, I wonder I'd love to slow down a little bit and get underneath what's going on before we get there. Because I when I hear no offense, I usually prep for getting offended, and I don't want us to do that to each other.

Okay. Okay. Light bulb. Okay. No worries. But this is my channel three care curiosity. K. Yeah. Yeah. I felt I felt that strongly, but I also I felt something that I think is consistent across the different contexts, which is you are actually shifting the responsibility back to me. The way that I'm bringing this up Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Good. Okay. We got it. So the way that I was bringing this up, no offense, but I'm acting like you are gonna unreasonable like you are being unreasonable in taking offense. Yes. But I but I know you're the kind of person who might be delicate and sensitive. And so I'm putting it out there saying, hey, hey, don't be that person. I'm not doing anything wrong. It's you. And so No. You need to adjust to what I'm about to say. Nope. No. Not you are a delicate and sensitive person. I might be ready. I'm I'm getting ready to be a dick. That's how I would see it. Like, I'm get I I'm giving myself permission. Yes. No. No. No. We're yeah. Because because I'm giving myself permission to not be thoughtful by telling you to not take offense. Therefore, I don't have to do any work on my side to make sure that I'm giving you feedback or coaching in a non offensive way.

Yes. Yeah. I I I think we're we're actually saying the same thing here. Okay. Great. What I'm what I'm I'm trying to drive at is I know that what I'm going to say might be offensive. But instead of taking ownership over that and trying to make sure it's not offensive or it's presented in a way that shows care or a desire to help Yes. I am offloading that responsibility to you and leaving you wondering, like, why why would you say this? Are you like, do you think I'm the kind of person who takes offense easily? Yes. Exactly. And and when when you cut it off and say, hey. Wait a minute. Why why don't you pause and think about this for a second? You're putting that responsibility back in my hands where it belongs. Okay. This is exactly everything. This is It's something. It's definitely something. It's everything. It's we we were using the word accountability as as what both of these communication tools have in common, the Invisible Army. And but it's also about responsibility. When you come into my office and say, I'm observing something that I wanna share with you because I have concerns, then you are taking responsibility for what you're getting ready to lay out on my desk. Yes. When you when when someone says, hey, let's pause for a second then. When you say don't be I don't want you to be offended. I'm wondering if we can, you know, if we can just get ahead of that. I am shifting how do you think differently about responsibility and accountability? I've never thought about it really before.

I think responsibility is well, okay. I'm just I'm just thinking about the research on this. Responsibility is a sense that it's a it's a sense of ownership that I take over my actions Okay. Or over a decision. Whereas accountability is me having to justify my actions to you. Okay. I'm not tracking. Say it again. So responsibility is personal, and accountability is interpersonal. Okay. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So responsibility is something I can take, but you can hold me accountable. Got it. Okay. That's super helpful. He's justify, have explain, and answer to you as opposed to when I'm responsible, I'm answering to myself. God, then why don't we talk about radical responsibility instead of radical accountability? Because we don't trust people to uphold their commitments to themselves. We think that they need to be held accountable by others. So But a lot of people think that. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.

It's like a whole another podcast, I think. It might be. Yeah. So when so it's interesting because I'm gonna get really nuanced here, but I think it's really important. I mean, I'm telling you, if if you if you unless you are an island, if you have a partner, if you're a parent, if you have children, if you have friends, I think this is an important conversation. Because when I stop you, when you say, look, I don't mean to tear you down here, Bren, but and I stop you, I think two things are happening. And I say, woah. Woah. Woah. Then let's stop before that even potentially could happen. There's two things happening there, Adam. One is I need you before you start to take responsibility for what you're going to say. And I will hold you accountable for what you say. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding. Jackpot. Yes. Do know what I mean? You're asking me to take responsibility, and you are making it clear up front that if I don't, you are gonna hold me accountable. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Yeah. So k. Let's k. Let's keep that in mind. Let's like, let's hold that in mind. So what what these preemptive pauses I like that better than interruptions when people are using these bullshit disclaimers. What they're doing is a combination of responsibility and accountability. So Yes. Let's try it again. And I don't really know you. And so I I don't know that I'm gonna be on channel three communication with you looking for care and connection. I'm just going to I'm just gonna probably say something. So why don't you say to me, look. I don't mean to be shitty about this. So why don't you try that with me? I have to I have to use one that I would actually Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're saying. Yeah. That's what I would say. I I I don't like to think about myself as someone who would ever be shitty. So, that might be wishful thinking. But here we go. Bren. Yeah. I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but it's really important to Okay. Okay. Let me can I just stop you there?

You already did? Yeah. It it worries me when you say that you don't mean to sound like a jerk because I don't experience you as a jerk. I can't do the other one with you because I I'm always on channel three communication with you because we're friends. So so I would just probably say, I when you say you don't mean to sound like a jerk, I immediately kinda get defensive. And I also am curious about we don't talk to each other like that. So do you wanna take a pause and figure out another way that would be jerk proof? Yeah. So there it is. Like, I need you to take responsibility for what you're going to say. Yeah. And to say, I don't mean to sound like a jerk is not enough responsibility. Yes. And if you are indeed a jerk to me, I will hold you accountable for it. And your disclaimer is not a get out of jerk, you know, free card.

Okay. So this this is a this is a big moment for me. Because Me too. This clarifies why I like another flavor of disclaimer and hedge. Okay. The kind that I like are the opposite of making excuses. They are I love disclaimers and hedges that show interpersonal sensitivity, as opposed to showing a lack of sensitivity and a lack of concern and care for others. So can I walk you through some examples of the ones that I find myself advising? I am on the edge of my chair with bated breath, and I'm a little nervous. Go ahead. Okay. Bren, I might be wrong, but here's a thought. Bren, I think this might be true, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? I love those. Do you wanna react, or you want me to tell you why the science has taught me to love them first?

Oh, you could tell me. I I'm I'm torn. I'm mixed, but I wanna hear about the science. And I'm I I wanna hear about the science, and then I'll walk through it with you. Go ahead. Okay. Tell me about the science. I'm curious. I'm very curious. Good. Good. Okay. So there's a solid body of evidence showing that if we are interdependent, if we're collaborating, if we're playing basketball as opposed to doing gymnastics, to use one of our new favorite analogies, that you care as much about whether I'm interested in your opinion as you do about whether my opinions are right. And you're you're vetting me on on care, not just competence. And in those situations, it's really important for me to show that I'm I'm willing to consider your view, that I'm not just locked into my view. I I have to balance assertiveness and openness. So Alison Fragail calls this the power of powerless speech. And she finds that when when people are evaluating a potential teammate, and I imagine this is true also when they're looking at a a possible partner on on a first date, that they they look at these disclaimers and hedges and think, okay, this person is not gonna be a bull in a china shop. They're not gonna dominate every decision. They're actually gonna be receptive to what I have to say. And the the research I've read on this in the workplace suggests that if your boss is easily threatened, it's better to frame your suggestion as a question. Like, here's an idea. What do you think of this? As opposed to, here's an idea. You should adopt this. And if you wanna influence someone who has more power than you, instead of just telling them what you're gonna do, it's more effective to seek their advice and say, hey. You know, I'm I'm kinda torn. What direction would you recommend? And I think I find that really compelling. And there's, I think, a bunch of evidence suggesting that, unfortunately, we live in a world where these strategies are especially important for women, because women are more likely to threaten male audiences in particular, and using so called weak language is actually a source of surprising strength, which we can go into more. But I have said enough things.

Well, what's the top of mind right now for me is fuck that. Rightfully so. That's why I said unfortunately. Yeah. That unfortunately doesn't cover it. But here here is where here is where I get worried. Well, first of all, let me just say this. For the record, as my partner and collaborator in this podcast, I am not gonna do that. I am I am zero chance am I gonna do that if it does not accurately reflect Yes. My genuine sentiment. Yes. Endorse. Other otherwise, you know, this is like the gauntlet of talk this is the gauntlet of bullshit masculinity is that if I'm direct, I'm an aggressive bitch. If I hedge and use disclaimers, then I'm wishy washy and lack executive presence. Like, so I'm gonna pick the one that makes me enables me to sleep at night. And so and this I'm like, I'm really having to stay in my skin. I'm I'm working really hard to not lose my mind right now. But it's not it would not be unlike me. And I think you could you could you know, starting a business together with a partner like you and I have done, which a podcast is a business, is not easy. And we've had really hard talks, really hard rumbles. We've talked about having to do repair with each other. It's not gonna be unusual for me to genuinely say to you, I'm not sure if this is a the best idea that I've ever had or the worst thing I've ever thought, and then I'm scared. I'm not even sure what's driving it, but here's what I'm wondering if we should consider doing. That that I'm gonna say that to you because it genuinely reflects where I am. But the days of me contorting myself into a hedgy little disclaimer, I have an idea, and I'm wondering if you think it's a good idea because it would be so cute if you thought it was a good idea. Fuck that. I'm not doing that.

Oh, no. Yeah. I don't I don't ever wanna hear that from anyone. Yeah. Especially from women. But anybody. But anybody. Yeah. And so I think it really does point to it really does point to it it really almost makes me wanna cry. I'm gonna just be really honest with you. It's like I really haven't to fight back tears because it's just not me. It's, you know, black folks and brown folks and disabled folks and queer folks and people who, you know, this is the best idea you're ever gonna hear, dude, and I'm gonna make you think it's yours so I don't get in trouble so you're not threatened by, you know, my excellence and, you know, you're winning mediocrity. It it's just it's really hard. And so what I would say is I think it's interesting to read the comments on our podcast. So some people listen to it who are not into the leadership work that we do and not even into thinking about work. They're thinking about this for their their lives. I think I would say when I genuinely feel curious, I wanna be in relationships with people where I'm not dinged for saying, look. I'm not sure, but here's what I'm thinking.

Yes. And I wanna be equally in relationships where I'm like, shit. I think I figured this out last night. This is what I think we should do. Then I want people to be like, go. Go. I love this for you. Shine the light. Yes. I love it. And so if you can't be both in your power and in your vulnerability in your personal life with people, it's a reevaluation marker for me. And at work, I just want you to know that that's not always true for all of us. I I mean, I think probably I take this so personally because I just think as a, you know, a newly minted assistant professor, this was my whole life in committees. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm wondering I mean, I'm not sure, but I'm thinking we should you know you know, this is the reality, and this is why equity matters. This is why feminism matters. This is why representation matters. And this is the problem, I think, sometimes with research. It will tell us through a scientific model what's effective Yeah. But not always shine a light on why we have to do shit like that to be effective.

Yeah. Beautifully said with power and vulnerability. And I I would say it tells us what's effective, but not always what's right. Oh, god. Yes. It also tells us what's effective in a one shot situation, but rarely addresses the question of, are we then just reinforcing the stereotype and failing to shatter it? And I think the more times you break the stereotype by saying, this is a really good idea, the better, right? Because you are modeling a different way of communicating and legitimating That's right. And as I listen to your reactions on this, I think it strikes me that two things can be true simultaneously here. One is that we've just got to stop evaluating people on their styles of communication and start evaluating them on the quality of their ideas and the thought and care they put into presenting them. I I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. We sadly live in a world where people still get judged on the group they belong to and the identity they hold. And given that, I I'm I'm still committed to figuring out, okay, what is effective for somebody who might might be threatening to, you know, a majority group member or who might be in just a a tough position. How do they communicate? And so I I wanna get your reaction to a specific example. This is Hannah Riley Bowles and Linda Babcock. It's one of their experiments on relational accounts. You know, the work on women negotiating salaries. So they tried to put together an example of something that you could say that I think shows both strength and vulnerability. And I like it. I have a hunch that you have some ways to improve it. So here is the line that boosted salary recommendations for women did not matter for men in one of their experiments. The line I should say the line is part of a paragraph, but this is the line that stood out for me. The line goes like this. I don't know how typical it is for people at my level to negotiate, but I'm hopeful you'll see my skill at negotiating as something important that I bring to the job. I love it. There's a disclaimer. Right? I I'm actually not sure if this is appropriate, but this is something I'm really good at. And guess what? I'm gonna be negotiating on your behalf if you hire me or if you give me a raise. And this skill that you could otherwise perceive as as hurting you because I'm asking you for more money, this is actually gonna work to your benefit.

Yeah. And I don't think I'm did you say this, did I know this already? Did men did not get dinged on that. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I I don't know because to me, what my my my read is I I don't really I don't really care if this is normative or not. I'm gonna I'm gonna negotiate this with you because I think it's a good skill that I have, and I'd like for you to see it. And I'd like more money. And so, so Oh, I like I like I like how candidly you did that. The you just put it out there. Yeah. I mean, that that's it. I think I'm worth more. And so so I think that Woah. Pause on that for a second. Pause on that. Yeah. Yeah. Just I mean, we're we're talking about about these micro patterns of communication. Yeah. Think I mean, the word that comes to mind is authenticity. But Right. You said it you said it so matter of fact. I think I'm worth it. That there there's something so influential about that that it doesn't come through when somebody says, I'm gonna make the case to you that I'm worth it. I'm worth it for the following seven reasons, where it starts to feel overexplained and over justified. And you're just saying, I think I'm worth it, which doesn't require me to to put up my guard and argue with you. And it also it it just conveys so much confidence on your part. Like, you don't have any doubt. I'm worth it. Yeah. And I'm also That is such an effective way to communicate.

Yeah. For me, I I also think, though, it's it's really tough too, because I have it's personality aligned for me. Like, I I'm I'm I'm I'm not always funny, but I'm quick witted. It might be bad, but I, you know, I I have a personality that that suits. And so I know what style is best for me. Would it work for everyone? I'm not sure. Have I heard it more recently in our hiring over the last two or three years? A 100%. Do I love it in people? 100%. And so I because they will be representing me in situations where I will need to see that level of grounded confidence. So I think that and the other thing is that in terms of the humanity up front, the humanity the humanity and the power, the vulnerability and the confidence, those things living together, I think curiosity is the key there. I I we talked about this the other day where we were talking about, oh, I was I was joking about the fact that I didn't know whether someone's in a car service for me for a job, and I was like, should I tip this person? I because I came up you know, in addition to being a union steward of my colorful past, I was a bartender and waiter for six years. And so I just said, you know what? I know this seems really weird, but how does tipping work with y'all? Because it's important to me to get it right. And so if you've tipped, I wanna know. But if you haven't been tipped, I wanna know. And the driver literally turned around at the light and said, it's so thoughtful that you would ask me that. Most people are so anxious to talk about money and things like that that they just wouldn't even ask. So they would either they just probably wouldn't do anything. I'm like, yeah. I just don't know how it works. Yeah. And he he's like, well, this this this is how it works.

This is this is almost like oh, sorry. Go ahead. No. And what I learned was there is a minimal tip included, but it's not a living wage kind of tip. And but a a regular normal tip would be too much because there is a small percentage included. So he said if you're if you're driving with one of our drivers in this driving service, this is really helpful. I was like, man, thanks. That's so helpful. It would have never occurred to me to go to the source and just ask. It's it's almost like asking for directions as a as a man driving. No. No. I I should just know. I should be able to figure it out. And what I would do instead, if I couldn't, is I ask somebody else who's taking the car service, but I don't go directly to the driver. And I loved how you did that. We're we're we're probably at time here. So maybe moving forward, wrap up. Yeah. Yeah. So two high level I don't know how high level these are, actually. Two reactions, just stepping back a little bit. One is, I think my big worry around people just objecting across the board to disclaimers is, you know, I hear a lot of people just pounce on so called weak language. And they say, you gotta edit all the disclaimers and hedges out of your comments and meetings, out of your speeches, out of the way that you talk to your partner. And I think that's a mistake. I don't think we should be judging language as strong or weak. I think what we should be conveying is that language should be clear, and it should be caring, ideally. And Alison Forgell's book, Likable Badass, is such a good encapsulation of how to do that effectively. And I think you actually modeled some of what she recommends in the book, in the way that you asked for your raise. So that was my first reaction. The other thing that I'm just left thinking about is, I think we no. Maybe not.

Oh, I love this. I love your thinking in real time. It's like down downloading downloading learnings right now. Buffering. It's buffering. I love it. The little wheel is spinning, and I changed my mind about where I was gonna land. But, no, I'm going back to the beginning where you talked about Invisible Armies and Bullshit Disclaimers. And I think striving to make our armies as visible as possible and making sure our disclaimers are not bullshit, but they're heartfelt, is something we can check before we use them. As opposed to having this Yeah. Like, you can't ever have an invisible army. You can't ever have a disclaimer. What I took out of this conversation is how nuanced that is and how there's a time and a place for each of those. And there are also ways in which they can be used manipulatively and counterproductively. I think that's a I think that represents my takeaways. I I really had some big takeaways from our conversation today. Personal takeaway for me that was hard is how easily I get hooked when people do not take responsibility for the language they use and the impact it has on other people. The second one is how frustrated I get when I have to do the lift of holding people accountable for not taking responsibility. There's a theme here. Three, I think a hedge, a disclaimer, representation of other people's opinions. I'm not gonna call them an Invisible Army because I have such a negative connotation around that, but just the representation of what you're seeing in other people. I think for me, the bottom line is care, thoughtfulness, and is it aligned with how you really feel? You can never make something effective that's manipulative and not aligned with, really, I think, what you're sensing or feeling. I think that's very, very difficult because I think above all else, no matter what we're hearing, we are doing an authenticity check on people all the time. And I just think the emotional baggage from a lot of the work that women have to do about really often making people feel good about their own mediocrity while making ourselves small is kills us. And so literally and spiritually and morally in every other way. So I think that's that was a big learning. I love the conversation. I I appreciate it. And I don't always love it when you pump the brakes, but I did not find myself flying through the windshield on this one. I did I I it was more of that thing that your mom and dad did when you were little and you were riding in the front seat where they just kinda put their arm out on the on the brake pump. I I do think my own argument would say it's not an all or nothing. It's about alignment and nuance and care. And I just wanna say for people listening, don't think that this came easy to me if I have the right words. I practice every hard conversation I'm gonna have with someone with a coach. I you know, I've been working on this in a lot of different ways, therapy, coaching, practice, discipline for twenty years. And so the careful use of language is it's a practice.

Would you agree? Realize I I didn't even realize I pumped on the brakes. Yeah. Because, I mean, the name yeah. Because of the name of this this this subchapter in Strong Ground is beware of Invisible Armies and bullshit disclaimers. Like, it is it's it's pretty sweeping. Well, I don't think it's sweeping at all. I think that I think the invisible modifier, we clarified what Yes. That's true. Acceptable versus unacceptable invisibility is. Right? But you've already had a modify in modifier in there. And then bullshit disclaimers. I'm I'm defending non bullshit disclaimers, and you are too. That's it. Let's go. That was fun. See you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bren Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.